engine of souls | forum 3

BiancaDee925 · Veteran Member

RE: News #1: France Denies Citizenship due to Veil

BiancaDee925 · Veteran Member

ericaaaa3 wrote:

I do not agree with France government's position because that is the Islamic's culture and beliefs. France shouldnt deny them citizenship if they don't fit with their criteria. I believe that US should not follow France because that is one thing that I like about the US that they don't deny people of citizenship based on their culture, beliefs, and religion. The relation between France and the Muslim world is going to be very tense because now the Muslim people are not going to be pleased with France. Now the Muslim people will probably stop communicating themselves to France based on this situation. I think the inter-cultural in France will be a very tense topic because the governement is going to frown upon it. France is very diverse but the government is trying to pick and choose which cultures can come into their country and I feel that is wrong to do.

I agree with you! Especially on the whole "pick and choose" thing. I feel that it's wrong too; France shouldn't ignore or push a culture aside just because they believe in different things. If they continue to be this way, then France and the Muslim world aren't going to get along. Great argument! - Bianca Dee

Moussa · Veteran Member

Heling is wrote:

Moussa wrote:

Heling is wrote:

The fear of discrimination should never be a detterent from the rights and freedoms of people for their religion. Our world is currently in that state. Muslims can cover up, Christians can preach and spread Bibles to passerbys, and Jews and preach all they want. We LIVE in that kind of openess.

Yes, but we do that in PRIVATE sectors, like at church or in the home. To think that everyone is as open minded is not sensible, boss.

not true at all! preachers go out in public and pass our fliers of the "right path", Muslims go outside in public in their religious clothing, and jews have no problem (or any other religion) in expressing themselves in public!

I never said people would be openminded. I just said that everyone should (and is) allowed to freely practice religion in public.

Moussa · Veteran Member

Heling is wrote:

joelhead wrote:

LEENA23 wrote:

I thought Spain had the most Muslims? Also, I don't believe that she should have "shut her mouth". If her husband married HER, then he must not have been the traditional Muslim man. She may have thought that his religious views were not as strict.

NO. France has the most muslims. :D

everyone is getting this wrong. The article in no way says that the lade wasn't muslim ALREADY! she could be muslim, married this guy that needed the citizenship, and now for whatever reason wants to wear the hijab (by force or choice). that's the point of the article

joelhead · Veteran Member

Moussa wrote:

I very strongly disagree with the actions of the French government.

Bearing in mind the French governments (and French constitution's) almost religious implementation of a secular society (irony?) and their obsession with controlling religion in public areas I can not see how this follows through with their beliefs in personal rights.
If the court could adequately show that the woman was being oppressed in one way or another, her husband would be infringing on her right as French Citizen. Forcing her to dress that way, would be limiting her choice; therefore rejecting his citizenship on the basis that he is limiting her religious freedom is completely reasonable.

However, if the woman openly states and believes that it was her own choice to wear the veil (full body or partial) and that she openly decided to wear it, she should never be restricted from doing so.

The reason why I disagree with this ruling is because it has a constitutional basis in the French Constitution. Freedom of Religion is provided to all. However (as with all rights) there are limits placed. A person in France can practice their religion, so long as it stays private and out of the public eye. The government has the job to enforce this.
The veil isn't the only one to be attacked. Yammukah's are banned in schools as well as crosses of jesus on pins.

My objections to any limits on the veil in public are simply a disagreement with the French constitution. I think anyone should be able to practice their religion in public and show it. I believe that everyone should be able to contribute to “French Culture” because we all need to realize that culture never stays the same. Especially in today’s world of a Global Economy with trades across oceans. One can easily integrate Asian foods and cooking styles to improve French foods. A designer can be inspired to redesign French Clothing based on African styles. So the idea that people who want to become citizens need to “integrate” is ridiculous. There is nothing integrate into, because culture is constantly changing by those who practice it.

right, i agree with this. i always thought that culture is a constantly growing thing, not something that is set in stone. by moving there, she is taking a bit of her own culture and morphing it into something new, and potentially better.

joelhead · Veteran Member

Moussa wrote:

Heling is wrote:

joelhead wrote:

LEENA23 wrote:

I thought Spain had the most Muslims? Also, I don't believe that she should have "shut her mouth". If her husband married HER, then he must not have been the traditional Muslim man. She may have thought that his religious views were not as strict.
NO. France has the most muslims. :D

everyone is getting this wrong. The article in no way says that the lade wasn't muslim ALREADY! she could be muslim, married this guy that needed the citizenship, and now for whatever reason wants to wear the hijab (by force or choice). that's the point of the article

mac n' moose, all i'm trying to do is avoid people making false statements without proper backing. i admit i overlooked the fact about the french population of muslims, but i still am not convinced there are '1900 muslims' lovin' their religion 100%.

joelhead · Veteran Member

Jesse wrote:

i agree the French government that Muslim women shouldn't wear veil...because you never know that if the person wear veil could be a terrorism and destroy their property or blow up buildings. plus, you never know about the husband could be Islamic as well or could be a spy that related to and working for Al-Qaidea and roaming to other countries in Europe and blow everything up.

i dunno, jesse...it feels like you are agreeing with the french government to steroytype. not everyone who is mulsim or wears the veil (what's the name, mac n' moose?) is a terrorist...judging a book by its cover is never a good idea, because it gets people mad at you.

Jesse · Veteran Member

joelhead wrote:

Jesse wrote:

i agree the French government that Muslim women shouldn't wear veil...because you never know that if the person wear veil could be a terrorism and destroy their property or blow up buildings. plus, you never know about the husband could be Islamic as well or could be a spy that related to and working for Al-Qaidea and roaming to other countries in Europe and blow everything up.

i dunno, jesse...it feels like you are agreeing with the french government to steroytype. not everyone who is mulsim or wears the veil (what's the name, mac n' moose?) is a terrorist...judging a book by its cover is never a good idea, because it gets people mad at you.

true..buit i'm just saying

Zachary W · Veteran Member

joelhead wrote:

i think the french government is over reacting a little bit. whereas the husband is, in my and france's opinion, being totally unreasonable in dening his wife her rights, i do not believe an entire government should fickle in the affairs of one couple. if this was a serious problem and was causing great threat to the country, then maybe france should have put this effort into it. however, at the same time, it isn't fair to let this man totally control his wife, and the government should try and help her from her tyrant husband. but, if it is their religious practice to have the husband control the wife in this manner, then france shouldn't interfere at all; the government and religion shouldn't mix. this is a very sticky topic, and it feels like in order to come to a conclusion one must condradict themself at least once. i think the woman should be taken aside and should be asked about her personal opinion about the situation, without the influence of her husband. ah, but at this age, it probably has been engrained into her to always agree with her husband and not have a thought of her own. actually, could you rephrase the question?

I agree with you that France is over reacting, but how can you say that the husband is totally unreasonable and denying rights to his wife? The wife very well may be Muslim and already knew about the customs and culture of the Muslim religion before willingly marrying the man. Even if the wife wasn’t Muslim before the marriage, she would obviously have known who the man she was marrying is like. Also, the husband didn’t come up with the custom of Muslim women always wearing a veil, he’s merely following his religion as any devote Muslim man would, much like what takes place in other religions with orthodox practices that seem either unnecessary or uncommon to others.

Taylor · Newbie

mre wrote:If she was already in France and she married a Muslim and if she didn't mind to wear the vail, then it shouldn't be a problem to France. However, if she did not want to wear the vail, then I can see why they would deny him citizenship.

OK. This is the first news story we are going to discuss and analyze. Remember, the rubric for deliberative dialogue that we used in class yesterday for the 'fishbowl' discussion also applies here. These are the criteria:


·The student demonstrated knowledge of the topic. This was made evident by reference to a variety of resources from multiple perspectives.
·The student demonstrated an appreciation of the contributions that multiple perspectives bring to the topic. This was made evident by reference to competing perspectives and the merits and trade-offs of each.
·The student listened to and respected the knowledge, views and values of others. This was made evident by listening carefully, asking clarifying questions, and building on the ideas of others, while not dominating conversation.

So, what I am going to ask you to do is read the article below and begin a discussion on your thoughts concerning this topic. Remember, the goal is not to 'win' by making others agree with you. It is to open a dialogue from your position to explore deeper issues about the content.

Finally, don't just state your position. Respond to others and ask meaningful questions. Do you agree with the French government's position? Why or why not? Should the US follow France? What does this mean for relations between France and the Muslim world? What does this mean for inter-cultural couples in France, a very diverse country? Let's start!

Evaluation: You will receive 60 points for a meaningful response, and 10 points for each respectful response to another students post.
The French government has refused to grant citizenship to a foreign national on the grounds that he forced his wife to wear the full Islamic veil.
The man, whose current nationality was not given, needed citizenship to settle in the country with his French wife.
But Immigration Minister Eric Besson said this was being refused because he was depriving his wife of the liberty to come and go with her face uncovered.
Last week, a parliamentary committee proposed a partial ban on full veils.
It also recommended that anyone showing visible signs of "radical religious practice" be refused residence permits and citizenship.
'Integration'
In a statement, Mr Besson said he had signed a decree on Tuesday rejecting a man's citizenship application after it emerged that he had ordered his wife to cover herself with a head-to-toe veil.

"It became apparent during the regulation investigation and the prior interview that this person was compelling his wife to wear the all-covering veil, depriving her of the freedom to come and go with her face uncovered, and rejected the principles of secularism and equality between men and women," he said.
Later, the minister stressed that French law required anyone seeking naturalisation to demonstrate their desire for integration.
Mr Besson's decree has now been sent to Prime Minister Francois Fillon for approval.
The interior ministry says only 1,900 women wear full veils in France, home to Europe's biggest Muslim minority.
In 2008, a French court denied citizenship to a Moroccan woman on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam was incompatible with French values.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/8494860.stm

JacQuieee · Member

I DONT REALLY AGREE WITH THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT BECAUSE I THINK THAT ITS NOT RIGHT THAT THEY WONT LET HER AND HER HUSBAND IN JUST BECAUSE SHE'S WEARIN A VEIL. THAT IS DISCRIMMINATION AND THATS NOT RIGHT BECAUSE THATS HER HUSBAND RELIGION AND THERE NOT GOING AGAINST IT.

Anthony · Veteran Member

mre wrote:

I do agree with the French government because he was depriving his wife of liberty to come and go with her uncovered and he shouldn’t get rights to citizenship for be cruel to his wife.

Sheldon2442 · Member

BiancaDee925 wrote:

ericaaaa3 wrote:

I do not agree with France government's position because that is the Islamic's culture and beliefs. France shouldnt deny them citizenship if they don't fit with their criteria. I believe that US should not follow France because that is one thing that I like about the US that they don't deny people of citizenship based on their culture, beliefs, and religion. The relation between France and the Muslim world is going to be very tense because now the Muslim people are not going to be pleased with France. Now the Muslim people will probably stop communicating themselves to France based on this situation. I think the inter-cultural in France will be a very tense topic because the governement is going to frown upon it. France is very diverse but the government is trying to pick and choose which cultures can come into their country and I feel that is wrong to do.
I agree with you! Especially on the whole "pick and choose" thing. I feel that it's wrong too; France shouldn't ignore or push a culture aside just because they believe in different things. If they continue to be this way, then France and the Muslim world aren't going to get along. Great argument! - Bianca Dee

I agree with the both of you i take french and its a beautiful language lol, but they can't throw a religion to the side just to keep their values thats messed up they probably and most likely are only refusing because of the 9/11 attack which is a huge racial discrimination.

jordan coe · Veteran Member

i find u can argue this in both ways cause it is cruel do deni someone because of there relgious belefe because thats there heritage thats what there were brought up on those morals and they choose to follow them and who is someone to judge someone on there relgious belefs they shouldnt be denied entry cause o f it the world has gone crazy that is wrong now on the other side of the arguement who are we to judge another countrys rules where not them we cant police them if they want to denie them they can how about the other countrys who kill people because they have different belefs or seperate them u dont hear about that u hear the other stuff the media isnt right they only pick out a certan issues and like i said that is a differnt country every country has its own rules how about the muslim countrys that denie christans u dont here about that in the news its is all crazy and that is only a small problem in the world we cant focus on little problems like that right now there is world hunger to worry about how about the fighting in iseral how about that most pepole glances over the big problem and look at the little ones

Bianca Vieira · Veteran Member

TO JESSE:
Everyone is entitled their opinion but i feel what you are saying is even worse than what France said. I feel your being very judgmental towards Muslims, which is not accurate. There is NO proof that just because your Muslim and wear a veil your going to be a terrorist and bomb everything, thats crazy.

-- Edited by Bianca Vieira on Friday 5th of February 2010 06:03:54 AM

BiancaDee925 · Veteran Member

kelsayexo wrote:

I find that as racial descrimination. They are not letting them into their country because of their religious aspects or their culture. To not allow citizenship because someone chooses to cover their body behind a veil is their own choice. That's like saying to go nudist. That is total judgement sort of speak ; if they are willing to go to France and not judge them on their cultural background then why should they do that. ( I'll cut it short , let others speak their mind. )

I agree; it is racial discrimination. Just because someone has different values or beliefs, the French government shouldn't push the Muslim culture or any other culture aside. If France continues to be like this little by little, many other cultures would start to frown upon the French government's behavior. But anyway, great points in your argument! - Bianca Dee

Moussa · Veteran Member

joelhead wrote:

Moussa wrote:

Heling is wrote:

joelhead wrote:

LEENA23 wrote:

mac n' moose, all i'm trying to do is avoid people making false statements without proper backing. i admit i overlooked the fact about the french population of muslims, but i still am not convinced there are '1900 muslims' lovin' their religion 100%.

lol. why not? it's only 1900 out of a couple million. seems reasonable to me.

Zachary W · Veteran Member

Anthony wrote:
I do agree with the French government because he was depriving his wife of liberty to come and go with her uncovered and he shouldn’t get rights to citizenship for be cruel to his wife.

How can he be judged and denied rights just for following his religion, and practicing the culture so that he may gain what ever it is that is promised to him by his religion's afterlife mumbojumbo.

mre · Senior Member

Grades Updated 2-24-10

Freire02 · Member

I don’t agree with the French denying them citizenship because they don’t fit in. I feel as if the French are just trying to protect there own people but hurting others traditions and ways. I don’t think people should be demanded on what to do it should be there choice to follow what religion, tradition or any of the sorts, and do it freely.

mre · Senior Member

Grades Updated 03-07-10