engine of souls | forum 3

mre · Senior Member

News #1: France Denies Citizenship due to Veil

kelsayexo · Veteran Member

I find that as racial descrimination. They are not letting them into their country because of their religious aspects or their culture. To not allow citizenship because someone chooses to cover their body behind a veil is their own choice. That's like saying to go nudist. That is total judgement sort of speak ; if they are willing to go to France and not judge them on their cultural background then why should they do that. ( I'll cut it short , let others speak their mind. )

R_Santos · Member

I think I would honestly be neutral in this case. Both sides arguements are very strong and controversial. I agree with the French government on not allowing the man to gain citizenship solely because he doesn't believe in equality between men and women. Im a strong believer in equality, but also I don't completely agree with the French government. The fact that the man and his wife are Islamic, means that they believe in the veil. I dont see France trying to change their way of life, but to consider a change in beliefs on equality. I think this might cause a great stir between Muslim world and France because some may see this as discrimination.

Sarah Labelle · Veteran Member

The French are trying to protect their own values, but it seems as though it's at the cost of other's traditions. It should be up to the couple which traditions they follow and which they don't. If the wife is okay with that tradition then it's her choice, and if she doesn't, it is her right to say no or seek help from authorities.

-- Edited by Sarah Labelle on Wednesday 3rd of February 2010 10:45:54 AM

ericaaaa3 · Veteran Member

I do not agree with France government's position because that is the Islamic's culture and beliefs. France shouldnt deny them citizenship if they don't fit with their criteria. I believe that US should not follow France because that is one thing that I like about the US that they don't deny people of citizenship based on their culture, beliefs, and religion. The relation between France and the Muslim world is going to be very tense because now the Muslim people are not going to be pleased with France. Now the Muslim people will probably stop communicating themselves to France based on this situation. I think the inter-cultural in France will be a very tense topic because the governement is going to frown upon it. France is very diverse but the government is trying to pick and choose which cultures can come into their country and I feel that is wrong to do.

Zachary W · Veteran Member

What the French government is doing is absurd, I would figure that she married the man knowing what religion he practiced. Also, who's to say that it was against her will, she married the man and is already a French citizen. Banning the veil is like banning rosary beads, crosses, or yamatkas (ok so I think its spelt wrong).

The US shouldn't follow France, this law/practice is discriminatory and also would break the first amendment granting freedom of religion. Also the idea of singling out one culture/religion/race would be undoing all the years of people fighting for equality and ridding the country of hate, which hasn't even fully happened yet.

This will ruin French relations with Muslims and Muslim nations, but that may be just what they want. If ridding the country of obvious religious practices is their goal then shouldn't this be applied to any and all religions.

This policy will hurt intercultural relations and marriages, and could very well cause a divide that could cause unnecessary aggresion or anger.

Heling is · Veteran Member

The article states that the French government does not allow 'radical' practitioners of Islam to gain citizenship… which is sensible. No one would want another martyr or potential suicide bomber romping around their streets. However, it appears that the requirements of wearing a veil is not a threat to national security but simply a tradition practiced in the Muslim religion. On this basis, I feel that it would be unfair to deny the man citizenship based on his will to practice his religion. Also, he is married to this French woman, which would imply that they have mutual consent to this relationship.

…Bu~t… I also feel as if there were a lot of details that were omitted from this article and I would think that if more facts were presented we would be able to gain a more insightful look into the government’s decision.

Should the U.S. follow? Of course not! I don't think she could even if she wanted to as her relationship with the Muslim world is already thin and fragile and there are already many people practicing this act in the United States. The U.S. is also much more diverse and perhaps a little more accepting of this practice.

France and the Muslim world's relationship probably won't change that much, I believe. After all, a Muslim who married a Frenchwoman would probably be frowned upon by his fellow Muslims. D: France is also pretty homogenous in its races and culture...

-- Edited by Heling is on Wednesday 3rd of February 2010 10:36:40 AM

-- Edited by Heling is on Wednesday 3rd of February 2010 10:39:08 AM

Dokolski · Member

I dont agree with the Immigration minister to deny the couple. For the women to wear the full face veil, is their beliefs as a couple. it was something that they were raised upon in their islamic beliefs. this immigration minister was denying them citizenship based on something he thought was wrong. in taking up these beliefs they decided to follow the guide lines of the religion so it is a choice. just because their country looks down upon women needing to wear these veils, it doesnt mean that they should look down upon on people who hold these beliefs

Nay · Veteran Member

I think that the verdict was unfair you should be able to become a citizen and be able to keep the customs that they are taught. As long as the wife agree to wear the veil, there shouldnt be a problem. France is not in open minded to customs of others it seems. They Shouldnt be butting into a personal problem, she knew what she was getting herself into when she married him.

joelhead · Veteran Member

i think the french government is over reacting a little bit. whereas the husband is, in my and france's opinion, being totally unreasonable in dening his wife her rights, i do not believe an entire government should fickle in the affairs of one couple. if this was a serious problem and was causing great threat to the country, then maybe france should have put this effort into it. however, at the same time, it isn't fair to let this man totally control his wife, and the government should try and help her from her tyrant husband. but, if it is their religious practice to have the husband control the wife in this manner, then france shouldn't interfere at all; the government and religion shouldn't mix. this is a very sticky topic, and it feels like in order to come to a conclusion one must condradict themself at least once. i think the woman should be taken aside and should be asked about her personal opinion about the situation, without the influence of her husband. ah, but at this age, it probably has been engrained into her to always agree with her husband and not have a thought of her own. actually, could you rephrase the question?

R_Santos · Member

Just because they are married doesn't really mean that they have mutual consent on everything. I remember watching a movie about an Iranian man who was a doctor in America and his wife was American, and both had a child. When they went to Iran for a vacation, he changed his mind and decided the family would live there now. He ended up becoming a different person, and she was forced to wear the veil, and her and her child, were being forced to live there. The wife sought out the American Embassy for help. Im not sure if it was based on a true story but that is an example of married people where the wife had no say in anything.

Vi · Veteran Member

I personally disagree with the French government. Not allowing a person citizenship because of their own beliefs and behaviors is just disrespectful to me and shouldn't be tolerated. They are pretty much telling them to change their ways and culture and no one can make someone do something not wanted. The US should not follow France, because we don't want to be known as a country that tries to make people change their ways. The France and Muslim worlds will never truly beable to agree if France won't allow women to wear veils into their country.

illy · Member

I think that the woman should be able to do what she wishes. If she doesn't want to wear the vail then she shouldn't have to but if she does then I think the French should except the fact of her and her husbands religious beliefs. However, I don't think France should judge people by there racial beliefs. They should jus let the woman and her husband be citizens and get over the fact the woman is wearing a vail because it is not like they are hurting France by doing so.

illy

Heling is · Veteran Member

Zachary W wrote:

What the French government is doing is absurd, I would figure that she married the man knowing what religion he practiced. Also, who's to say that it was against her will, she married the man and is already a French citizen. Banning the veil is like banning rosary beads, crosses, or yamatkas (ok so I think its spelt wrong).

The US shouldn't follow France, this law/practice is discriminatory and also would break the first amendment granting freedom of religion. Also the idea of singling out one culture/religion/race would be undoing all the years of people fighting for equality and ridding the country of hate, which hasn't even fully happened yet.

This will ruin French relations with Muslims and Muslim nations, but that may be just what they want. If ridding the country of obvious religious practices is their goal then shouldn't this be applied to any and all religions.

This policy will hurt intercultural relations and marriages, and could very well cause a divide that could cause unnecessary aggresion or anger.

I disagree with it being completely absurd... I really feel like there's something more to this that what is given. Also, Spanish Inquisition, Zach?

illy · Member

Zach i really like your idea on the France News. You really get into detail and make your facts and opinion very persuasive. I agree with you 100% the woman knew what she was getting herself into.

illy · Member

Nay, i agree with your reply because this woman deff. knew what she was doing when she married the guy. Also i think France doesn't have the right to buttin on there personal life because its not like they are affecting them in any way or form. I think you have a good point.

Zachary W · Veteran Member

Heling is wrote:
I disagree with it being completely absurd... I really feel like there's something more to this that what is given. Also, Spanish Inquisition, Zach?

I mean its absurd because of how blatant and explicit the ruling is. Wait, what about the Spanish Inquisition, you know old world history bores me?

R_Santos · Member

Also, I don't feel it was based on the veil. I think it was based on belief of equality because, "The interior ministry says only 1,900 women wear full veils in France, home to Europe's biggest Muslim minority." This means they already have Muslims in France who DO wear veils. These women may want to wear it, but then again who can really say since we don't know them all.

Moussa · Veteran Member

I very strongly disagree with the actions of the French government.

Bearing in mind the French governments (and French constitution's) almost religious implementation of a secular society (irony?) and their obsession with controlling religion in public areas I can not see how this follows through with their beliefs in personal rights.
If the court could adequately show that the woman was being oppressed in one way or another, her husband would be infringing on her right as French Citizen. Forcing her to dress that way, would be limiting her choice; therefore rejecting his citizenship on the basis that he is limiting her religious freedom is completely reasonable.

However, if the woman openly states and believes that it was her own choice to wear the veil (full body or partial) and that she openly decided to wear it, she should never be restricted from doing so.

The reason why I disagree with this ruling is because it has a constitutional basis in the French Constitution. Freedom of Religion is provided to all. However (as with all rights) there are limits placed. A person in France can practice their religion, so long as it stays private and out of the public eye. The government has the job to enforce this.
The veil isn't the only one to be attacked. Yammukah's are banned in schools as well as crosses of jesus on pins.

My objections to any limits on the veil in public are simply a disagreement with the French constitution. I think anyone should be able to practice their religion in public and show it. I believe that everyone should be able to contribute to “French Culture” because we all need to realize that culture never stays the same. Especially in today’s world of a Global Economy with trades across oceans. One can easily integrate Asian foods and cooking styles to improve French foods. A designer can be inspired to redesign French Clothing based on African styles. So the idea that people who want to become citizens need to “integrate” is ridiculous. There is nothing integrate into, because culture is constantly changing by those who practice it.

Heling is · Veteran Member

Vi wrote:

I personally disagree with the French government. Not allowing a person citizenship because of their own beliefs and behaviors is just disrespectful to me and shouldn't be tolerated. They are pretty much telling them to change their ways and culture and no one can make someone do something not wanted. The US should not follow France, because we don't want to be known as a country that tries to make people change their ways. The France and Muslim worlds will never truly beable to agree if France won't allow women to wear veils into their country.

Vi, what if their own beliefs contadict the general beliefs of the French philosophy? What then? For instance, what if in someone's culture he liked to hunt down whales for the oil, but France doesn't let me because it's against the laws and the general beliefs of the government. Would that person be granted citizenship? Probably not. He'd be a lawbreaker.

Bianca Vieira · Veteran Member

I believe the French government is making a very harsh and discriminating decision. They are pretty much putting down the Muslim culture and traditions. If they are accepting other cultures why are Muslims exempt? If they tried to keep other cultures out of France just because they don’t agree with their traditions there would be no diversity. The couple is doing nothing wrong, but following what they believe in. Although Muslim men are very dominant of the marriage, the woman knows this before they agree to marriage. The couple is aware of what they are doing and if they are fine with it why should that be held against them? If their tradition is causing no harm to the French society why should it matter? They are keeping their values apart of them and I don’t believe that they should change their values just to gain citizenship. France should be more than accepting to them, they should be proud and happy of their country that they would even want to become citizens of France.
I think US should look at this as a mistake to learn by. I think if US agreed with Frances decision they would be very contradicting by going against the 1^st amendment. Although many people can argue that US has gone against it before, why be in the wrong again? Many agree that the US is a ‘melting pot’ and if they didn’t respect others cultural values and traditions there would be no diversity and everyone and every country would just be clicks.
I believe the Muslim society must take this situation as a very hurtful thing. Why is it that Muslim society seems to be target a lot with arguments against their cultural values, especially when it comes to women. If I was a Muslim I would look down on France. I think this is going to hurt any relation between the French and Muslim people.
From my experience of going to France I noticed that France is a very diverse country and for them to make a statement like that it is going to affect a lot of the population. I would be extremely mad if I lived in France because I think the French government is being very prejudice, and I would hate to live in a place that doesn’t accept/respect my values and my preferences.

heartsreina · Member

Well to be truly honest i dont believe it truly matters, people should be allowed to enter this county. nobody has the right to say no to u i believe everyone should have chance of a fair life and not allow people to stand in their way .

Sheldon2442 · Member

I believe that the French government is wrong, because they’ll agree with their own culture but not other cultures. That man believes in what he was taught what he was born to know and it’s wrong to refuse something like that all because he covered his wife in a Veil. I understand that they are trying to protect their values and all that but there is no need to deny the man of citizenship for that that’s like forcing him to stop his beliefs in order to be a citizen.

LEENA23 · Member

SNAP SNAP

THERE DEAD WRONG EVERYONE HAS A CERTAIN WAY TO LIVE LIFE. THEY SHOULD TAKE IN CONSERTATION THAT EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT RELIGION OR CULTURE THAT THEY PRACTICE. THE MINISTER HAS NO RIGHT TO TELL SOME ONE THEY DONT BELONG HERE AND KICK THEM OUT.

 SHE SHOULD HAVE SHUT HER MOUTH AND WEAR IT OR SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE CONVERTED TO MUSILM. THE OTHER 1900 PEOPLE WHO WEAR THE FULL BODY VEIL I BELIEVE THAT THEY STRONGY BELIEVE IN THERE RELIGION. FRANCE HAS THE BIGGEST MINORITY OF MUSLIMS IN EUROPE. SHE SHOULD HAVE KNOW THAT SHE WAS GOING TO HAVE TO WEAR THAT VEIL WHETHER OR NOT

<< GET BACK AT ME >>

Jesse · Veteran Member

i agree the French government that Muslim women shouldn't wear veil...because you never know that if the person wear veil could be a terrorism and destroy their property or blow up buildings. plus, you never know about the husband could be Islamic as well or could be a spy that related to and working for Al-Qaidea and roaming to other countries in Europe and blow everything up.

montille25 · Veteran Member

I think they should'nt do some thing like that because its relating to there religion, by doing that more people who wear that type of clothing would think its another type of racial descrimination because they are only targeting one type of people.

heartsreina · Member

R_Santos wrote:

I think I would honestly be neutral in this case. Both sides arguements are very strong and controversial. I agree with the French government on not allowing the man to gain citizenship solely because he doesn't believe in equality between men and women. Im a strong believer in equality, but also I don't completely agree with the French government. The fact that the man and his wife are Islamic, means that they believe in the veil. I dont see France trying to change their way of life, but to consider a change in beliefs on equality. I think this might cause a great stir between Muslim world and France because some may see this as discrimination.

i do agree alittle with but i dont think anyone has the right to stop u from doing something but u got some gud points

illy · Member

Vi wrote:

I personally disagree with the French government. Not allowing a person citizenship because of their own beliefs and behaviors is just disrespectful to me and shouldn't be tolerated. They are pretty much telling them to change their ways and culture and no one can make someone do something not wanted. The US should not follow France, because we don't want to be known as a country that tries to make people change their ways. The France and Muslim worlds will never truly beable to agree if France won't allow women to wear veils into their country.

i agree with your statement on France and Muslim worlds will never be able to bind if they can't even come to agreements on wearing vails or not. You do make a good point.

Bianca Vieira · Veteran Member

You brought up so many good points that I was thinking in my head but couldn't fully get out. The irony like you mentioned, to me is kind of funny. How can we see this but the government officals are blind to it. Im glad you put irony, its the perfect way to put it.

Heling is · Veteran Member

Moussa wrote:

I very strongly disagree with the actions of the French government.

Bearing in mind the French governments (and French constitution's) almost religious implementation of a secular society (irony?) and their obsession with controlling religion in public areas I can not see how this follows through with their beliefs in personal rights.
If the court could adequately show that the woman was being oppressed in one way or another, her husband would be infringing on her right as French Citizen. Forcing her to dress that way, would be limiting her choice; therefore rejecting his citizenship on the basis that he is limiting her religious freedom is completely reasonable.

However, if the woman openly states and believes that it was her own choice to wear the veil (full body or partial) and that she openly decided to wear it, she should never be restricted from doing so.

The reason why I disagree with this ruling is because it has a constitutional basis in the French Constitution. Freedom of Religion is provided to all. However (as with all rights) there are limits placed. A person in France can practice their religion, so long as it stays private and out of the public eye. The government has the job to enforce this.
The veil isn't the only one to be attacked. Yammukah's are banned in schools as well as crosses of jesus on pins.

My objections to any limits on the veil in public are simply a disagreement with the French constitution. I think anyone should be able to practice their religion in public and show it. I believe that everyone should be able to contribute to “French Culture” because we all need to realize that culture never stays the same. Especially in today’s world of a Global Economy with trades across oceans. One can easily integrate Asian foods and cooking styles to improve French foods. A designer can be inspired to redesign French Clothing based on African styles. So the idea that people who want to become citizens need to “integrate” is ridiculous. There is nothing integrate into, because culture is constantly changing by those who practice it.

I strongly disagree with your belief that religion should be practiced and expressed publically. If kids wore yarmulkes and rosaries to school, it would probably just result in prejudice and racism. if people wre praying to Allah in the middle of the street, that would rouse a crowd of spectators. Our world is not ready to handle that kind of openess. Also, think about the rest of the world. Much of it is not as open minded as the U.S.

heartsreina · Member

montille25 wrote:

I think they should'nt do some thing like that because its relating to there religion, by doing that more people who wear that type of clothing would think its another type of racial descrimination because they are only targeting one type of people.

yea ur totally right bout that we have no reason to descriminate people for the way they look ii totally get wat u mean

Moussa · Veteran Member

Heling is wrote:

The article states that the French government does not allow 'radical' practitioners of Islam to gain citizenship… which is sensible. No one would want another martyr or potential suicide bomber romping around their streets.

everyone's right should be protected, EVEN the most radical ones. Given they are radical, they are much more prone to government infringment of their rights. They are the ones we need to protect. As in the U.S. the government protects the rights of everyone, even those that wish to destroy it.

Moussa · Veteran Member

Heling is wrote:

Moussa wrote:

I strongly disagree with your belief that religion should be practiced and expressed publically. If kids wore yarmulkes and rosaries to school, it would probably just result in prejudice and racism. if people wre praying to Allah in the middle of the street, that would rouse a crowd of spectators. Our world is not ready to handle that kind of openess. Also, think about the rest of the world. Much of it is not as open minded as the U.S.

The fear of discrimination should never be a detterent from the rights and freedoms of people for their religion. Our world is currently in that state. Muslims can cover up, Christians can preach and spread Bibles to passerbys, and Jews and preach all they want. We LIVE in that kind of openess.

Heling is · Veteran Member

Jesse wrote:

i agree the French government that Muslim women shouldn't wear veil...because you never know that if the person wear veil could be a terrorism and destroy their property or blow up buildings. plus, you never know about the husband could be Islamic as well or could be a spy that related to and working for Al-Qaidea and roaming to other countries in Europe and blow everything up.

Ah... racial profiling. I actually agree with this one, even though the notion that any or all Muslim men are spies in France is unlikely. Further investigation is needed, i believe. :)

illy · Member

LEENA23 wrote:

SNAP SNAP

 THERE DEAD WRONG EVERYONE HAS A CERTAIN WAY TO LIVE LIFE. THEY SHOULD TAKE IN CONSERTATION THAT EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT RELIGION OR CULTURE THAT THEY PRACTICE. THE MINISTER HAS NO RIGHT TO TELL SOME ONE THEY DONT BELONG HERE AND KICK THEM OUT.

 SHE SHOULD HAVE SHUT HER MOUTH AND WEAR IT OR SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE CONVERTED TO MUSILM. THE OTHER 1900 PEOPLE WHO WEAR THE FULL BODY VEIL I BELIEVE THAT THEY STRONGY BELIEVE IN THERE RELIGION. FRANCE HAS THE BIGGEST MINORITY OF MUSLIMS IN EUROPE. SHE SHOULD HAVE KNOW THAT SHE WAS GOING TO HAVE TO WEAR THAT VEIL WHETHER OR NOT

<< GET BACK AT ME >>

Your deff. right girl they are VERY wrong on kicking people out jus because of there beliefs and the woman should have never married a muslim man if she wasn't ready to convert herself to a muslim aspect. I deff. feel you on your point of view.

illy

Vi · Veteran Member

LEENA23 wrote:

SNAP SNAP

 THERE DEAD WRONG EVERYONE HAS A CERTAIN WAY TO LIVE LIFE. THEY SHOULD TAKE IN CONSERTATION THAT EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT RELIGION OR CULTURE THAT THEY PRACTICE. THE MINISTER HAS NO RIGHT TO TELL SOME ONE THEY DONT BELONG HERE AND KICK THEM OUT.

 SHE SHOULD HAVE SHUT HER MOUTH AND WEAR IT OR SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE CONVERTED TO MUSILM. THE OTHER 1900 PEOPLE WHO WEAR THE FULL BODY VEIL I BELIEVE THAT THEY STRONGY BELIEVE IN THERE RELIGION. FRANCE HAS THE BIGGEST MINORITY OF MUSLIMS IN EUROPE. SHE SHOULD HAVE KNOW THAT SHE WAS GOING TO HAVE TO WEAR THAT VEIL WHETHER OR NOT

<< GET BACK AT ME >>

I agree with this post because it is true that we each have our own culture and way we practice things. It isn't the woman's fault if it is apart of her religion that requires her to wear veils, she's just showing her culture the respect and other countries should respect her choice as well. The France government just needs to put themselves in her shoes and then decide whether or not they should ban apart of someone's religion.

Sarah Labelle · Veteran Member

Jesse wrote:

i agree the French government that Muslim women shouldn't wear veil...because you never know that if the person wear veil could be a terrorism and destroy their property or blow up buildings. plus, you never know about the husband could be Islamic as well or could be a spy that related to and working for Al-Qaidea and roaming to other countries in Europe and blow everything up.

That could be true about anyone though. And weather they wear a veil or not, it wouldn't change their other actions. Just because they are Muslim doesn't mean they are a terrorist. If a woman wants to wear a veil she should be able, and if she doesn't, she shouldn't.

-- Edited by Sarah Labelle on Wednesday 3rd of February 2010 10:58:53 AM

Dokolski · Member

Jesse wrote:

i agree the French government that Muslim women shouldn't wear veil...because you never know that if the person wear veil could be a terrorism and destroy their property or blow up buildings. plus, you never know about the husband could be Islamic as well or could be a spy that related to and working for Al-Qaidea and roaming to other countries in Europe and blow everything up.

Soo your saying its ok to judge people just based on how they look, and how SOME radicals have acted in the past. yes i understand that you need to have heightened awareness but that doesnt mean you should stop every one who is islamic from coming into your country... now if they have a bomb strapped to their chest with wires poking out of their clothes, then yes, i would call in for additional screening, but to stop people JUST based on looks is completely closed minded.

Heling is · Veteran Member

Moussa wrote:

Heling is wrote:

Moussa wrote:

I strongly disagree with your belief that religion should be practiced and expressed publically. If kids wore yarmulkes and rosaries to school, it would probably just result in prejudice and racism. if people wre praying to Allah in the middle of the street, that would rouse a crowd of spectators. Our world is not ready to handle that kind of openess. Also, think about the rest of the world. Much of it is not as open minded as the U.S.
The fear of discrimination should never be a detterent from the rights and freedoms of people for their religion. Our world is currently in that state. Muslims can cover up, Christians can preach and spread Bibles to passerbys, and Jews and preach all they want. We LIVE in that kind of openess.

Yes, but we do that in PRIVATE sectors, like at church or in the home. To think that everyone is as open minded is not sensible, boss.

Bianca Vieira · Veteran Member

Although you say your neutral in the case, are you leaning to one side more? I would love to see your points on why the French governments decision is the right one. Maybe it will give me an insight I didn't see. If you were Muslim, or if you were denied citizenship because of a cultural/religious belief would you feel the same way?

joelhead · Veteran Member

LEENA23 wrote:

SNAP SNAP

 THERE DEAD WRONG EVERYONE HAS A CERTAIN WAY TO LIVE LIFE. THEY SHOULD TAKE IN CONSERTATION THAT EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT RELIGION OR CULTURE THAT THEY PRACTICE. THE MINISTER HAS NO RIGHT TO TELL SOME ONE THEY DONT BELONG HERE AND KICK THEM OUT.

 SHE SHOULD HAVE SHUT HER MOUTH AND WEAR IT OR SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE CONVERTED TO MUSILM. THE OTHER 1900 PEOPLE WHO WEAR THE FULL BODY VEIL I BELIEVE THAT THEY STRONGY BELIEVE IN THERE RELIGION. FRANCE HAS THE BIGGEST MINORITY OF MUSLIMS IN EUROPE. SHE SHOULD HAVE KNOW THAT SHE WAS GOING TO HAVE TO WEAR THAT VEIL WHETHER OR NOT

<< GET BACK AT ME >>

can you prove that all the other muslims love what they do and enjoy wearing the veil? are you sure france has the smallest muslim community in europe? there are countires in europe that have a much smaller population than the country france, so shouldn't they have a smaller muslim population just by default?

montille25 · Veteran Member

Jesse wrote:

i agree the French government that Muslim women shouldn't wear veil...because you never know that if the person wear veil could be a terrorism and destroy their property or blow up buildings. plus, you never know about the husband could be Islamic as well or could be a spy that related to and working for Al-Qaidea and roaming to other countries in Europe and blow everything up.

That a lie,because you are saying that someone wearing a veil might be a terrorist " humm." Would you be saying that if 9/11 never happend " humm." disbelief

Venassa · Member

mre wrote:

OK. This is the first news story we are going to discuss and analyze. Remember, the rubric for deliberative dialogue that we used in class yesterday for the 'fishbowl' discussion also applies here. These are the criteria:


·The student demonstrated knowledge of the topic. This was made evident by reference to a variety of resources from multiple perspectives.
·The student demonstrated an appreciation of the contributions that multiple perspectives bring to the topic. This was made evident by reference to competing perspectives and the merits and trade-offs of each.
·The student listened to and respected the knowledge, views and values of others. This was made evident by listening carefully, asking clarifying questions, and building on the ideas of others, while not dominating conversation.

So, what I am going to ask you to do is read the article below and begin a discussion on your thoughts concerning this topic. Remember, the goal is not to 'win' by making others agree with you. It is to open a dialogue from your position to explore deeper issues about the content.

Finally, don't just state your position. Respond to others and ask meaningful questions. Do you agree with the French government's position? Why or why not? Should the US follow France? What does this mean for relations between France and the Muslim world? What does this mean for inter-cultural couples in France, a very diverse country? Let's start!

Evaluation: You will receive 60 points for a meaningful response, and 10 points for each respectful response to another students post.
The French government has refused to grant citizenship to a foreign national on the grounds that he forced his wife to wear the full Islamic veil.
The man, whose current nationality was not given, needed citizenship to settle in the country with his French wife.
But Immigration Minister Eric Besson said this was being refused because he was depriving his wife of the liberty to come and go with her face uncovered.
Last week, a parliamentary committee proposed a partial ban on full veils.
It also recommended that anyone showing visible signs of "radical religious practice" be refused residence permits and citizenship.
'Integration'
In a statement, Mr Besson said he had signed a decree on Tuesday rejecting a man's citizenship application after it emerged that he had ordered his wife to cover herself with a head-to-toe veil.

"It became apparent during the regulation investigation and the prior interview that this person was compelling his wife to wear the all-covering veil, depriving her of the freedom to come and go with her face uncovered, and rejected the principles of secularism and equality between men and women," he said.
Later, the minister stressed that French law required anyone seeking naturalisation to demonstrate their desire for integration.
Mr Besson's decree has now been sent to Prime Minister Francois Fillon for approval.
The interior ministry says only 1,900 women wear full veils in France, home to Europe's biggest Muslim minority.
In 2008, a French court denied citizenship to a Moroccan woman on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam was incompatible with French values.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/8494860.stm

i think its works both ways because.. in this world we live intoday people stear at one another.. so thats why the french goverment likes the viel on women

heyy u guys my first answer was beter !!! I LOST IT , SO NOW I GOT LAZYY confuse furious

heartsreina · Member

Jesse wrote:

i agree the French government that Muslim women shouldn't wear veil...because you never know that if the person wear veil could be a terrorism and destroy their property or blow up buildings. plus, you never know about the husband could be Islamic as well or could be a spy that related to and working for Al-Qaidea and roaming to other countries in Europe and blow everything up.

i totally dont agree with u cause u shoulnt judge a boook by its cover cause u wouldnt be sayin that if that was u

please:

Moussa · Veteran Member

joelhead wrote:

can you prove that all the other muslims love what they do and enjoy wearing the veil? are you sure france has the smallest muslim community in europe? there are countires in europe that have a much smaller population than the country france, so shouldn't they have a smaller muslim population just by default?

joel, the article said France had the largest minority of Muslims in Europe.

that's what she meant.

nathen530 · Member

I think the French were wrong to not accept the couple because Even though their practices might not mix with the French peoples practices that doesn’t mean that they should judge them and tell them how they should dress and more That women was a grown women and if she didn’t want to wear the full veil she don’t have to she is old enough to make her own decisions. It also says “In 2008, a French court denied citizenship to a Moroccan woman on the grounds that her radical practice of Islam was incompatible with French values” that only has been a year and about a month ago that’s not to long ago that proves that racial issues still go on today.
(I NO ITZ LONG) nuthin new =) BY NATHEN BRITO

Heling is · Veteran Member

joelhead wrote:

LEENA23 wrote:

SNAP SNAP

 THERE DEAD WRONG EVERYONE HAS A CERTAIN WAY TO LIVE LIFE. THEY SHOULD TAKE IN CONSERTATION THAT EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT RELIGION OR CULTURE THAT THEY PRACTICE. THE MINISTER HAS NO RIGHT TO TELL SOME ONE THEY DONT BELONG HERE AND KICK THEM OUT.

 SHE SHOULD HAVE SHUT HER MOUTH AND WEAR IT OR SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE CONVERTED TO MUSILM. THE OTHER 1900 PEOPLE WHO WEAR THE FULL BODY VEIL I BELIEVE THAT THEY STRONGY BELIEVE IN THERE RELIGION. FRANCE HAS THE BIGGEST MINORITY OF MUSLIMS IN EUROPE. SHE SHOULD HAVE KNOW THAT SHE WAS GOING TO HAVE TO WEAR THAT VEIL WHETHER OR NOT

<< GET BACK AT ME >>

can you prove that all the other muslims love what they do and enjoy wearing the veil? are you sure france has the smallest muslim community in europe? there are countires in europe that have a much smaller population than the country france, so shouldn't they have a smaller muslim population just by default?

I thought Spain had the most Muslims? Also, I don't believe that she should have "shut her mouth". If her husband married HER, then he must not have been the traditional Muslim man. She may have thought that his religious views were not as strict.

Moussa · Veteran Member

Jesse wrote:

i agree the French government that Muslim women shouldn't wear veil...because you never know that if the person wear veil could be a terrorism and destroy their property or blow up buildings. plus, you never know about the husband could be Islamic as well or could be a spy that related to and working for Al-Qaidea and roaming to other countries in Europe and blow everything up.

The french governemnt limits religious freedoms. and while you're worrying about an attack from terrorists, you should be more worried about your own personal rights cuz when one person's right is infringed, your right is infringed.

MLK: "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice anywhere"

BiancaDee925 · Veteran Member

I think what the French government is doing is completely unfair to the Muslim culture. It's like they won't accept the Muslim culture, but they can accept others? If a person wants to believe in their faith and values, then they should be able too, whether or not if their beliefs and values are different from their own. France shouldn't deny citizenship to a man whose wife happened to be Muslim. What's even more absurd is the fact that his wife is a French citizen.
It seems to me that the French government is blowing this situation way out of proportion. All because of a woman wearing a veil? Who knows what else they will do next! The U.S. should not follow France's example, because the United States has done a good job of being open to many cultures, and doesn't deny citizenship for what a person's beliefs are, because that would go against their rights.
Unfortunately, many Muslims who live in France and other parts of the world will become at odds with the French government because of this situation. Muslims are going to feel that the Fench are going to pick and choose cultures that are acceptable and unacceptable in their country, which is practically discrimination.

R_Santos · Member

To Bianca V. : I don't feel I have enough information to fully choose a side, because some parts seems a bit off. But like I said, I don't believe this is a matter of religious/cultural beliefs. I think the decision was based on the man's belief of equality. I'm not sure if France has the same 'equal rights' like we do here, but if so then forcing the woman to wear the veil would be unacceptable unless of course she said it was alright, but none of the information was given whether or not she was forced or if she wants to wear it. Nor do i have the information on what the decision was REALLY based on. WISH TO BUY MORE INFO. lol